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	<title>Comments on: The ARTS verses the Emerging Church&#8230;</title>
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	<description>A conversation on faith &#38; culture for creatives, leaders &#38; influencers</description>
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		<title>By: Tom Neyhart</title>
		<link>http://rkweblog.com/2008/01/the-arts-verses.html/comment-page-1/#comment-1347</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom Neyhart</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Jan 2008 10:29:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://richkirkpatrick.com/rich_kirkpatricks_weblog/2008/01/the-arts-verses-the-emerging-church/#comment-1347</guid>
		<description>Rich, great post!
I would like to touch on the dance thing.  In my former ministry, even in a &quot;contemporary&quot; style of service (I hate having to refer to it that way, worship is worship no matter the style preference) we had quite a bit of rigidity.

I had a 12 year old voice student who was an excellent dancer.  We ended up selecting a song from Barlow Girl for her to sing and she, along with two other youth group friends put together a beautiful dance.  She danced and sang while the other two danced and it was one of the creative things our church had done in the 4 years I had been there as the worship minister.  The leadership promptly squashed any ideas we had of doing something like that again because they felt too many people were uncomfortable, including themselves.

I understand the need for orderly worship but when something that is pure and holy is cast aside in fear because it is an artistic expression and goes against the grain of the church&#039;s tradition then I think there is a problem.  In this case, it was not a free form of expression but something we planned and rehearsed for two solid months so that the dance and clothing was appropriate and my student could be equipped to sing and dance together.

I am saddened when we try to force worhsip into a small box because we believe that is what God wants and expects. He is more concerned about the hearts of those gathered in worship than he is about musical style, sermon content, drama, choirs etc.

Amos 5:21-23 &quot;I hate, I despise your religious feasts; I cannot stand your assemblies. Even though you bring me burnt offerings and grain offerings, I will not accept them. Though you bring choice fellowship offerings, I will have no regard for them.  Away with the noise of your songs! I will not listen to the music of your harps.&quot;

If the heart is wrong it doesn&#039;t matter about dance, music, or anything else...it is destible to God.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Rich, great post!<br />
I would like to touch on the dance thing.  In my former ministry, even in a &#8220;contemporary&#8221; style of service (I hate having to refer to it that way, worship is worship no matter the style preference) we had quite a bit of rigidity.</p>
<p>I had a 12 year old voice student who was an excellent dancer.  We ended up selecting a song from Barlow Girl for her to sing and she, along with two other youth group friends put together a beautiful dance.  She danced and sang while the other two danced and it was one of the creative things our church had done in the 4 years I had been there as the worship minister.  The leadership promptly squashed any ideas we had of doing something like that again because they felt too many people were uncomfortable, including themselves.</p>
<p>I understand the need for orderly worship but when something that is pure and holy is cast aside in fear because it is an artistic expression and goes against the grain of the church&#8217;s tradition then I think there is a problem.  In this case, it was not a free form of expression but something we planned and rehearsed for two solid months so that the dance and clothing was appropriate and my student could be equipped to sing and dance together.</p>
<p>I am saddened when we try to force worhsip into a small box because we believe that is what God wants and expects. He is more concerned about the hearts of those gathered in worship than he is about musical style, sermon content, drama, choirs etc.</p>
<p>Amos 5:21-23 &#8220;I hate, I despise your religious feasts; I cannot stand your assemblies. Even though you bring me burnt offerings and grain offerings, I will not accept them. Though you bring choice fellowship offerings, I will have no regard for them.  Away with the noise of your songs! I will not listen to the music of your harps.&#8221;</p>
<p>If the heart is wrong it doesn&#8217;t matter about dance, music, or anything else&#8230;it is destible to God.</p>
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		<title>By: Rich Kirkpatrick</title>
		<link>http://rkweblog.com/2008/01/the-arts-verses.html/comment-page-1/#comment-1346</link>
		<dc:creator>Rich Kirkpatrick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 19 Jan 2008 08:58:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://richkirkpatrick.com/rich_kirkpatricks_weblog/2008/01/the-arts-verses-the-emerging-church/#comment-1346</guid>
		<description>Pete--I think the gospel would be in it if they were telling their particular story somehow.  It might have been weird to not hear them share their context.

Dance is a particularly interesting and powerful form that can be an amazing story telling tool.  I, of course, cannot dance at all!  However, I think everyone should dance, just not in public.;)
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Pete&#8211;I think the gospel would be in it if they were telling their particular story somehow.  It might have been weird to not hear them share their context.</p>
<p>Dance is a particularly interesting and powerful form that can be an amazing story telling tool.  I, of course, cannot dance at all!  However, I think everyone should dance, just not in public.;)</p>
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		<title>By: Pistol Pete</title>
		<link>http://rkweblog.com/2008/01/the-arts-verses.html/comment-page-1/#comment-1345</link>
		<dc:creator>Pistol Pete</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 19 Jan 2008 05:57:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://richkirkpatrick.com/rich_kirkpatricks_weblog/2008/01/the-arts-verses-the-emerging-church/#comment-1345</guid>
		<description>I went to a leadership summit sponsored by Willow Creek this summer.  They used a wide variety of artistic expressions, many of which we quite moving and beautiful.  They were also varied and involved persons of many ages and ethnicities.

At one point, however, some &quot;break dancers&quot; (if that&#039;s what you call them) took the stage and did their thing.  It was great to see young mostly African-American and Hispanic young men be involved in a church thing.

But I couldn&#039;t help but wonder - where is the Gospel in this?
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I went to a leadership summit sponsored by Willow Creek this summer.  They used a wide variety of artistic expressions, many of which we quite moving and beautiful.  They were also varied and involved persons of many ages and ethnicities.</p>
<p>At one point, however, some &#8220;break dancers&#8221; (if that&#8217;s what you call them) took the stage and did their thing.  It was great to see young mostly African-American and Hispanic young men be involved in a church thing.</p>
<p>But I couldn&#8217;t help but wonder &#8211; where is the Gospel in this?</p>
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		<title>By: Mike Dalton</title>
		<link>http://rkweblog.com/2008/01/the-arts-verses.html/comment-page-1/#comment-1344</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike Dalton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Jan 2008 17:35:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://richkirkpatrick.com/rich_kirkpatricks_weblog/2008/01/the-arts-verses-the-emerging-church/#comment-1344</guid>
		<description>Awesome, touched a few more nerves here it looks like. Using buzzwords like emerging and postmodern always gets people&#039;s panties in a bunch, LOVE IT!!!

It once again boils down to preference, as long as it goes with what the word of God is saying then go with it.

Oh yeah, by the way was Jesus a political figure, might as well stir up something else, please don&#039;t respond.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Awesome, touched a few more nerves here it looks like. Using buzzwords like emerging and postmodern always gets people&#8217;s panties in a bunch, LOVE IT!!!</p>
<p>It once again boils down to preference, as long as it goes with what the word of God is saying then go with it.</p>
<p>Oh yeah, by the way was Jesus a political figure, might as well stir up something else, please don&#8217;t respond.</p>
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		<title>By: Matt</title>
		<link>http://rkweblog.com/2008/01/the-arts-verses.html/comment-page-1/#comment-1343</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Jan 2008 17:18:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://richkirkpatrick.com/rich_kirkpatricks_weblog/2008/01/the-arts-verses-the-emerging-church/#comment-1343</guid>
		<description>this is amazing...i feel my brain growing a wrinkle...
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>this is amazing&#8230;i feel my brain growing a wrinkle&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Rich Kirkpatrick</title>
		<link>http://rkweblog.com/2008/01/the-arts-verses.html/comment-page-1/#comment-1342</link>
		<dc:creator>Rich Kirkpatrick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Jan 2008 16:00:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://richkirkpatrick.com/rich_kirkpatricks_weblog/2008/01/the-arts-verses-the-emerging-church/#comment-1342</guid>
		<description>Tom--my attempt is to not critique or expose the emerging church as a whole (which is impossible for me to do in a post) but only compare the issue of supporting the arts.

Your point about orderly gifts, however, is a great point.  What that means is harder to flesh out but it is something we should struggle with gladly.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tom&#8211;my attempt is to not critique or expose the emerging church as a whole (which is impossible for me to do in a post) but only compare the issue of supporting the arts.</p>
<p>Your point about orderly gifts, however, is a great point.  What that means is harder to flesh out but it is something we should struggle with gladly.</p>
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		<title>By: Rich Kirkpatrick</title>
		<link>http://rkweblog.com/2008/01/the-arts-verses.html/comment-page-1/#comment-1341</link>
		<dc:creator>Rich Kirkpatrick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Jan 2008 15:55:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://richkirkpatrick.com/rich_kirkpatricks_weblog/2008/01/the-arts-verses-the-emerging-church/#comment-1341</guid>
		<description>Hi Mak--my experience has shown me evidence that in this newer movement there is as much danger as in the older of not propping up the artist.  &quot;Professional&quot; church artists, musicians and the like are really looked down upon in the emerging church, unless you are supported from outside the church.  The point is, how does one promote and launch artists from the church?  Is there a vision for funding an artist?  If story, mystery and beauty is valued, then the emerging churches should each support a professional story teller who can mentor other artists and allow the power of narrative to be expressed with more clarity.

I would say there is resistance to this since it is not egalitarian and puts a very skilled artist &quot;above&quot; those who think they are artists.  This is what I have seen and hope will not be the norm.

I am not saying, however that there is no structure or framework for the actual ministries, just not one that supports artists in the way I am asking about.  And, it is &quot;asking&quot; more than telling.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Mak&#8211;my experience has shown me evidence that in this newer movement there is as much danger as in the older of not propping up the artist.  &#8220;Professional&#8221; church artists, musicians and the like are really looked down upon in the emerging church, unless you are supported from outside the church.  The point is, how does one promote and launch artists from the church?  Is there a vision for funding an artist?  If story, mystery and beauty is valued, then the emerging churches should each support a professional story teller who can mentor other artists and allow the power of narrative to be expressed with more clarity.</p>
<p>I would say there is resistance to this since it is not egalitarian and puts a very skilled artist &#8220;above&#8221; those who think they are artists.  This is what I have seen and hope will not be the norm.</p>
<p>I am not saying, however that there is no structure or framework for the actual ministries, just not one that supports artists in the way I am asking about.  And, it is &#8220;asking&#8221; more than telling.</p>
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		<title>By: Tom Massa</title>
		<link>http://rkweblog.com/2008/01/the-arts-verses.html/comment-page-1/#comment-1340</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom Massa</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Jan 2008 14:07:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://richkirkpatrick.com/rich_kirkpatricks_weblog/2008/01/the-arts-verses-the-emerging-church/#comment-1340</guid>
		<description>I agree. However, I believe this is a more serious problem with the emerging church than even you expose here. If one of &quot;Christian&quot; art&#039;s jobs is to reflect who God is, bring glory to Him, etc., who are we take away logic and structure? After all, God is in many ways beyond comprehension, but He has divinely revealed to us that He is a God of purpose and order. If the emergent church&#039;s art takes these facets of Holy God away, I believe with all my heart that they are [unintentionally] telling the world that God is something He clearly is not.

I am BY NO MEANS saying that God cannot be worshiped through all forms of art and creativity. On the contrary, I am an ardent advocate of celebrating God&#039;s grace and glory through the arts. However, Paul shows us a more excellent way: orderly church services wherein people serve according to their gifts, not according to their hobbies.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree. However, I believe this is a more serious problem with the emerging church than even you expose here. If one of &#8220;Christian&#8221; art&#8217;s jobs is to reflect who God is, bring glory to Him, etc., who are we take away logic and structure? After all, God is in many ways beyond comprehension, but He has divinely revealed to us that He is a God of purpose and order. If the emergent church&#8217;s art takes these facets of Holy God away, I believe with all my heart that they are [unintentionally] telling the world that God is something He clearly is not.</p>
<p>I am BY NO MEANS saying that God cannot be worshiped through all forms of art and creativity. On the contrary, I am an ardent advocate of celebrating God&#8217;s grace and glory through the arts. However, Paul shows us a more excellent way: orderly church services wherein people serve according to their gifts, not according to their hobbies.</p>
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		<title>By: Tyler</title>
		<link>http://rkweblog.com/2008/01/the-arts-verses.html/comment-page-1/#comment-1339</link>
		<dc:creator>Tyler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Jan 2008 12:43:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://richkirkpatrick.com/rich_kirkpatricks_weblog/2008/01/the-arts-verses-the-emerging-church/#comment-1339</guid>
		<description>sounds like someone has been reading blue like jazz or something like it. i am one who has talent in the very limiting area of modern worship songs. that is how i learned the music I play...but I do think that a lot of churches are limiting the arts to the songs we sing on Sunday. There is much to be discovered, even though it might not minister to me. Imago Dei does a great job of this I think.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>sounds like someone has been reading blue like jazz or something like it. i am one who has talent in the very limiting area of modern worship songs. that is how i learned the music I play&#8230;but I do think that a lot of churches are limiting the arts to the songs we sing on Sunday. There is much to be discovered, even though it might not minister to me. Imago Dei does a great job of this I think.</p>
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		<title>By: Mak</title>
		<link>http://rkweblog.com/2008/01/the-arts-verses.html/comment-page-1/#comment-1338</link>
		<dc:creator>Mak</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Jan 2008 12:09:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://richkirkpatrick.com/rich_kirkpatricks_weblog/2008/01/the-arts-verses-the-emerging-church/#comment-1338</guid>
		<description>Have you found anywhere in emerging that truly has no framework? no skeleton on which it lays flesh to bones? I haven&#039;t experienced this. Deconstruction yes, but not without a framework. Even in the arts. But I&#039;m open to revelation to the contrary.

I think you make good points, I just want to be clear if you&#039;re talking hypothetically or if you&#039;ve seen this as a legitimate and/or growing problem
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Have you found anywhere in emerging that truly has no framework? no skeleton on which it lays flesh to bones? I haven&#8217;t experienced this. Deconstruction yes, but not without a framework. Even in the arts. But I&#8217;m open to revelation to the contrary.</p>
<p>I think you make good points, I just want to be clear if you&#8217;re talking hypothetically or if you&#8217;ve seen this as a legitimate and/or growing problem</p>
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