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	<title>Comments on: Worship Mythbusters: The Myth of Pragmatic Worship &#8211; Is our weekend service an &#8220;end&#8221; or a &#8220;means&#8221; to and end?</title>
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	<link>http://rkweblog.com/2009/01/worship-mythbusters-the-myth-of-pragmatic-worship-is-our-weekend-service-an-end-or-a-means-to-and-end.html?utm_source=rss&#038;utm_medium=rss&#038;utm_campaign=worship-mythbusters-the-myth-of-pragmatic-worship-is-our-weekend-service-an-end-or-a-means-to-and-end</link>
	<description>A conversation on faith &#38; culture for creatives, leaders &#38; influencers</description>
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		<title>By: Rich Kirkpatrick</title>
		<link>http://rkweblog.com/2009/01/worship-mythbusters-the-myth-of-pragmatic-worship-is-our-weekend-service-an-end-or-a-means-to-and-end.html/comment-page-1/#comment-3718</link>
		<dc:creator>Rich Kirkpatrick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 Jan 2009 04:15:41 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I am in, Mark!

Evaluating is the deal. Yes, it is tough but if we do not measure in some why the response people have as far as engaging in worship then we simply are not leading to spiritual things. 

And, yes, the tech and production and presentation is important, too. Its just that those things are secondary goals, not the end.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am in, Mark!</p>
<p>Evaluating is the deal. Yes, it is tough but if we do not measure in some why the response people have as far as engaging in worship then we simply are not leading to spiritual things. </p>
<p>And, yes, the tech and production and presentation is important, too. Its just that those things are secondary goals, not the end.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark Warnock</title>
		<link>http://rkweblog.com/2009/01/worship-mythbusters-the-myth-of-pragmatic-worship-is-our-weekend-service-an-end-or-a-means-to-and-end.html/comment-page-1/#comment-3717</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark Warnock</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 Jan 2009 03:20:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://richkirkpatrick.com/rich_kirkpatricks_weblog/?p=1594#comment-3717</guid>
		<description>At re:create, we really need to have a conversation about how to evaluate worship services, esp from the perspective of: did what we program help people engage with God?  Did what we program please God, never mind what people think?  Interesting challenge.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>At re:create, we really need to have a conversation about how to evaluate worship services, esp from the perspective of: did what we program help people engage with God?  Did what we program please God, never mind what people think?  Interesting challenge.</p>
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		<title>By: Laura Berry</title>
		<link>http://rkweblog.com/2009/01/worship-mythbusters-the-myth-of-pragmatic-worship-is-our-weekend-service-an-end-or-a-means-to-and-end.html/comment-page-1/#comment-3716</link>
		<dc:creator>Laura Berry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 Jan 2009 00:40:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://richkirkpatrick.com/rich_kirkpatricks_weblog/?p=1594#comment-3716</guid>
		<description>Good post - I appreciate that you&#039;ve done more than expose the faults that can happen in an evangelical setting. You&#039;ve given questions to help us evaluate and plan our worship services. Thank you.

While evaluation is important, it is a tough thing to evaluate concretely is it not - the worship of God? 

We may see the &#039;by-product&#039; of our congregation&#039;s worship immediately as individuals within the body or the body as a whole take noticeable next steps. However, there are times when the &#039;by product&#039; is there, but not as evident to us. Or the evidence comes to fruition at a later time (we see evidence of that in scripture do we not - God preparing people over a period of time. In our &#039;get it fast&#039; culture, I wonder if we lose sight or lack appreciation of what God cultivates over a span of time.)

Perhaps the toughness of evaluating was God worshipped is why we hear and see so many discussions on the technical or musical aspects of the services.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good post &#8211; I appreciate that you&#8217;ve done more than expose the faults that can happen in an evangelical setting. You&#8217;ve given questions to help us evaluate and plan our worship services. Thank you.</p>
<p>While evaluation is important, it is a tough thing to evaluate concretely is it not &#8211; the worship of God? </p>
<p>We may see the &#8216;by-product&#8217; of our congregation&#8217;s worship immediately as individuals within the body or the body as a whole take noticeable next steps. However, there are times when the &#8216;by product&#8217; is there, but not as evident to us. Or the evidence comes to fruition at a later time (we see evidence of that in scripture do we not &#8211; God preparing people over a period of time. In our &#8216;get it fast&#8217; culture, I wonder if we lose sight or lack appreciation of what God cultivates over a span of time.)</p>
<p>Perhaps the toughness of evaluating was God worshipped is why we hear and see so many discussions on the technical or musical aspects of the services.</p>
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		<title>By: Rich Kirkpatrick</title>
		<link>http://rkweblog.com/2009/01/worship-mythbusters-the-myth-of-pragmatic-worship-is-our-weekend-service-an-end-or-a-means-to-and-end.html/comment-page-1/#comment-3712</link>
		<dc:creator>Rich Kirkpatrick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Jan 2009 19:51:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://richkirkpatrick.com/rich_kirkpatricks_weblog/?p=1594#comment-3712</guid>
		<description>James,

The end of worship is an offering to God. The means is the expression of His people together offering that worship. The context is that unbelievers are and should be present. (I am including ALL we do--preaching, singing, elements, announcements, giving.)

You can have sub-goals to be sure that address how the &quot;end&quot; (our worship) is done in front of unbelievers, but it is not &quot;for&quot; them. Its &quot;from&quot; us believers, while not being about us believers. And its done in front of unbelievers while not being &quot;about&quot; them either.

There is tension to say that our public worship service is from us believers offering our expression of worship to God, but in the presence of people not yet believing. You cannot take the people out of it. So, yes we need communication and so forth.

If worship benefits a believer or unbeliever it is not the goal as much as the by-product or overflow. We consider people in everything we do as leaders. So, that is just a given. Or, rather it should be. 

Purpose for unbelievers? Nope. That is a consideration in everything a church does, including worship. Purpose for believers? Maybe. It matters that the activity is something we do together. But, having a communal act of faith expression worship to our God is really the goal. And, the one thing &quot;added&quot; is that we cannot alienate people who do not know Jesus yet in &quot;how&quot; we do our purpose. 

We simply have to value the faith issue in getting together each week to speak to God and hear from God as His people. Often, we de-value worship services because we see them as a way to build a program or ministry not for the act of worship. Promote ministry and values, but subjugate promotion to the expression of worship--NOT the other way around!

Thanks for conversing!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>James,</p>
<p>The end of worship is an offering to God. The means is the expression of His people together offering that worship. The context is that unbelievers are and should be present. (I am including ALL we do&#8211;preaching, singing, elements, announcements, giving.)</p>
<p>You can have sub-goals to be sure that address how the &#8220;end&#8221; (our worship) is done in front of unbelievers, but it is not &#8220;for&#8221; them. Its &#8220;from&#8221; us believers, while not being about us believers. And its done in front of unbelievers while not being &#8220;about&#8221; them either.</p>
<p>There is tension to say that our public worship service is from us believers offering our expression of worship to God, but in the presence of people not yet believing. You cannot take the people out of it. So, yes we need communication and so forth.</p>
<p>If worship benefits a believer or unbeliever it is not the goal as much as the by-product or overflow. We consider people in everything we do as leaders. So, that is just a given. Or, rather it should be. </p>
<p>Purpose for unbelievers? Nope. That is a consideration in everything a church does, including worship. Purpose for believers? Maybe. It matters that the activity is something we do together. But, having a communal act of faith expression worship to our God is really the goal. And, the one thing &#8220;added&#8221; is that we cannot alienate people who do not know Jesus yet in &#8220;how&#8221; we do our purpose. </p>
<p>We simply have to value the faith issue in getting together each week to speak to God and hear from God as His people. Often, we de-value worship services because we see them as a way to build a program or ministry not for the act of worship. Promote ministry and values, but subjugate promotion to the expression of worship&#8211;NOT the other way around!</p>
<p>Thanks for conversing!</p>
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		<title>By: James Nahrgang</title>
		<link>http://rkweblog.com/2009/01/worship-mythbusters-the-myth-of-pragmatic-worship-is-our-weekend-service-an-end-or-a-means-to-and-end.html/comment-page-1/#comment-3711</link>
		<dc:creator>James Nahrgang</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Jan 2009 19:20:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://richkirkpatrick.com/rich_kirkpatricks_weblog/?p=1594#comment-3711</guid>
		<description>Great post. I linked this on my blog.

I would be interested to hear you take your thoughts one step further regarding corporate worship. 

Some would say that the purpose of congregational worship is to the benefit of the believers (and they usually use verses like 1 cor. 14 for support). Others would say that it&#039;s for the benefit of God. 

I&#039;m still hashing this out in my own mind, but I&#039;m not sure I&#039;m comfortable with either thought. The first would suggest that if the congregation is worshiping for the benefit of themselves, then they are worshiping themselves, and may be seen as idolization. The second thought would suggest that the Lord needs our worship, and man somehow fulfills God&#039;s needs. 

Like I said, I&#039;m not comfortable with either of those &quot;purposes&quot; for worship. Which means that there is likely a 3rd option. Anyways, I&#039;d love to hear you thoughts on this. :-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great post. I linked this on my blog.</p>
<p>I would be interested to hear you take your thoughts one step further regarding corporate worship. </p>
<p>Some would say that the purpose of congregational worship is to the benefit of the believers (and they usually use verses like 1 cor. 14 for support). Others would say that it&#8217;s for the benefit of God. </p>
<p>I&#8217;m still hashing this out in my own mind, but I&#8217;m not sure I&#8217;m comfortable with either thought. The first would suggest that if the congregation is worshiping for the benefit of themselves, then they are worshiping themselves, and may be seen as idolization. The second thought would suggest that the Lord needs our worship, and man somehow fulfills God&#8217;s needs. </p>
<p>Like I said, I&#8217;m not comfortable with either of those &#8220;purposes&#8221; for worship. Which means that there is likely a 3rd option. Anyways, I&#8217;d love to hear you thoughts on this. <img src='http://rkweblog.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: The Worship Artist &#187; Blog Archive &#187; The Myth of Pragmatic Worship</title>
		<link>http://rkweblog.com/2009/01/worship-mythbusters-the-myth-of-pragmatic-worship-is-our-weekend-service-an-end-or-a-means-to-and-end.html/comment-page-1/#comment-3710</link>
		<dc:creator>The Worship Artist &#187; Blog Archive &#187; The Myth of Pragmatic Worship</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Jan 2009 19:13:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://richkirkpatrick.com/rich_kirkpatricks_weblog/?p=1594#comment-3710</guid>
		<description>[...] Read the full article [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Read the full article [...]</p>
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		<title>By: JB</title>
		<link>http://rkweblog.com/2009/01/worship-mythbusters-the-myth-of-pragmatic-worship-is-our-weekend-service-an-end-or-a-means-to-and-end.html/comment-page-1/#comment-3709</link>
		<dc:creator>JB</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Jan 2009 18:48:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://richkirkpatrick.com/rich_kirkpatricks_weblog/?p=1594#comment-3709</guid>
		<description>Great thoughts. I&#039;ve gotten caught up in mixing good audio merely for the sake that I don&#039;t like things sounding bad but not for the sake of helping lead people in worship. I have to continually remind myself that I&#039;m mixing for hundreds of people, not me.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great thoughts. I&#8217;ve gotten caught up in mixing good audio merely for the sake that I don&#8217;t like things sounding bad but not for the sake of helping lead people in worship. I have to continually remind myself that I&#8217;m mixing for hundreds of people, not me.</p>
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